Re: So you think your site is easy to navigate?? Try this .....

I'm going to respond in part to Mikes soap box mode comments.  In many cases, the position of the
state agency is something like this "We cant provide you with the software unless you are either in
school or starting school or employment is imminent."  The position doesn't take into account that
the client may be using the software/hardware to seek employment.  Do you now have at least some
idea of why unemployment among the blind hovers at around 80 percent?  The manufacturer of JAWS also
produces a less expensive product which is designed to work specifically within an internet context.
The product is Connect Out Loud and can be had for around 200 dollars US.  I don't know how well it
works as I have a fully functional version of JAWS however,  You can find a segment on connect out
loud in the main menu archives at http://www.acbradio.org  If memory serves:  the segment was done
either in January or February.  TNX for letting me spout!
Ray T. Mahorney
WA4WGA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Kear" <choicemag(at)hotmail.com>
To: <woodduck(at)mbay.net>; <hwg-techniques(at)hwg.org>
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: So you think your site is easy to navigate?? Try this .....


I'd suggest you contact your local Institute for the Blind or whatever the
organisation is in your area.   The software costs AUD$2000 so it's not a
trivial matter.   You might be better to get a blind person to come and
demonstrate it for you.  Then you can see just how they work.

I was staggered with how fast Darren could move around a page using only the
keyboard - turning on and off different sounds for different events.  It was
still painfully slow compared with using the mouse for a sighted person, but
the fingers were flying on the keyboard and events were happening sooo fast.

We were able to ask Darren things like "what things really bug you about
sites?" and "how could that have worked better for you?".  I'm sure if we'd
just got the software and loaded it up, we'd never have learned as much in
1.5 hours as we did.

<.soapbox mode>
Incidentally, I was astonished that blind people don't get any kind of
assistance to purchasing this software or other products for the blind -
from their health insurance or from the social welfare or the Institute for
the Blind or anyone.   Our health system gets other people things like
wheelchairs, prosthetic limbs, even false teeth, hearing aids etc, but here
is a product that will enable blind people to takea part in the world, and
they have to cough up $2000 for the privelege.  The rest of us get browsers
for free or near free or included with the system software, the blind have
to kick in a huge amount.   I think when it comes to health and
rehabilitation and support for people with disabilities,  we have organised
our society all wrong dont you?   I'm not sure how it ought to be organised,
but I think it's wrong that people can have to pay all that money out for
basic things when somehow or other our health or welfare system or support
system could surely help out.
<./soapbox mode>

Anyway, I think it was as important to have the blind person there as the
software he was using.

Cheers,
Mike Kear
AFP Webworks,
Windsor, NSW, Australia



>From: Peggi & Ben Rodgers <woodduck(at)mbay.net>
>To: <hwg-techniques(at)hwg.org>
>Subject: Re: So you think your site is easy to navigate??  Try this  .....
>Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:42:22 -0700
>
>Anybody have any address information for the creator of JAWS?  I'd like to
>get a bit more information about how it works before I redesign my sites to
>accommodate it.  That way I can make sure things work properly.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Peggi
>
>At 12:21 AM 6/4/01 -0400, Ray T. Mahorney wrote:
>>A Men Brother!  I am a JAWS user and you have hit on every point I have
>>run across!  Spot on! and
>>Good on you!
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Mike Kear" <choicemag(at)hotmail.com>
>>To: <hwg-techniques(at)hwg.org>
>>Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 11:39 PM
>>Subject: So you think your site is easy to navigate?? Try this .....
>>
>>
>>I have just come out of a most enlightening session with a blind user,
>>running though a client's web site with JAWS, a screen reading program
>>that
>>turns the web page into synthesised voice.
>>
>>I thought I was quite aware of accessibility issues before, and was
>>comfortable in thinking that my sites were better than the average in
>>providing access to the blind and people with other disabilities.  This
>>session was educational to say the least.
>>
>>I am still convinced my sites are better than average, but I am bound to
>>inform you that the average is pretty damn poor.   I know some people are
>>really concerned about accessibility for the disabled and others have
>>decided that the disabled are such a small portion of their userbase, it's
>>not worth changing everything to allow for them.
>>
>>I'm here to tell you that it's not difficult to design a good site to
>>allow
>>for access, it just takes a little understanding of how programs like JAWS
>>works.   To be truthful, I think that if I were blind, I'd go stark raving
>>mad at all the frustrations of life but trying to surf the web wouldn't
>>make
>>life any easier that's for sure.
>>
>>For example, he took us through a page of our bookshop.   And we'd
>>arranged
>>things to look nice on the page, but there were parts of the catalogue
>>page
>>where he didn't know what the "add to basket" graphic was referring to -
>>this book or the previous one.   And some nested tables were simply awful
>>and impossible to work round.    We all think putting navigation buttons
>>on
>>the top of every page makes for easy navigation, but blind people have to
>>wade through (in our case) 50 navigation links before getting to the guts
>>of
>>the page.  On a search of our site, the resulting page has a nice header
>>at
>>the top with links to all our site's catgegories and sub-categories and
>>then
>>a sidebar with links to other parts of the site, and finally the search
>>results itself.  Visually it looks fine - quick and simple to move around
>>the site.  But using the screen reading software it took **AGES** to get
>>to
>>anything related to the search.  By just laying out the page differently,
>>we
>>could have made this page FAR easier to navigate for him.
>>
>>I'm not suggesting we should all go about redesigning our sites just for
>>the
>>relatively few blind users, but just understanding how the software works,
>>has made me re-think many of the forms I build.   The user also said that
>>Government sites tended to be the worst of all.  I'm not sure if that's
>>because they're designed by developers with an eye on the government money
>>or because they are specified by bureaucrats.  Certainly of all the sites
>>that ought to know about accessibility, Government sites ought to be the
>>leaders, and apparently they aren't.
>>
>>
>>I think as web developers, you'd all be doing A Good Thing if you arranged
>>for a meeting like we just had at Australian Consumers Association - have
>>a
>>blind person come and work your site for you using their screen reading
>>software.  At the risk of being accused of making an off-colour joke, it's
>>a
>>real eye-opener.
>>
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Mike Kear
>>AFP Webworks,
>>Windsor, NSW, Australia.
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>Peggi Rodgers
>Flash Programmer
>Misty Canyon Designs
>Pacific Grove, CA
>prodgers(at)mistycanyon.com
>www.mistycanyon.com
>

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