On 6 Mar 2003, at 0:04, Nigel Peck - MIS Web Design wrote:

> > That's the question - would letting long lines of text
> > sprawl out the side of the page be a "better use" for
> > catching people's attention? Not necessarily.
> 
> I totally agree that long lines are just ad bad, this has
> to be taken into account in the design.

So in a liquid design, you need to have some way to 
control your text rendering so it doesn't produce 
ungainly long lines.

> > I was talking about why some non-web-designers might not
> > like "wasted white space." I've seen fixed size layouts
> > with 100% control (using Flash) that didn't have every
> > square inch of the area crammed with stuff.
> 
> Again I agree. I can't imagine any design that would work
> without white space to separate the design elements.

Me neither, but apparently there are people who think 
so. A local computer shop here always crams their 
print ads full of stuff (situation where they're paying by 
the column inch, I guess)!

> > Very true. A big jump for many traditional graphic
> > artists, in my experience. We have a designer here
> > who's idea of a catalog web page was to put up a PDF of
> > the existing catalog ...
> 
> There's plenty of them around :)

8-)

> > Again, not necessarily. The size of that "big chunk" is
> > determined by the visitor's browser window size, what
> > looks big to one person may look too small to another.
> 
> Exactly. That's the issue. Fixed designs can't adapt to
> the huge variety of browser window sizes in use.

True, but its an easy way to avoid sprawling lines of 
text.

> > No, I wasn't saying that they leave it completely empty,
> > but that they put it to good marketing uses, such as
> > inviting aisles, space for lines to form at registers or
> > around customer service kiosks, etc.
> 
> The point I was making is that white space at the side of
> the page caused by the use of a fixed width design is
> similar to a shop that simply leaves a section of the
> floor space completely empty. Not used in a positive way
> like those you suggest but simply left empty because they
> didn't know how to make use of it.

Or they happen to like it that way. Perhaps they 
wanted everything against the left margin, like Wired's 
site does, and don't care how much white space ends 
up unused on the right side.

> > I don't make a distinction between white space at one
> > side or another, or white space within the page. It's
> > white space. If the amount of white space seems to be
> > excessive and unused, perhaps the design could be
> > reworked to use it more effectively or differently, but
> > I don't think having white space on left or right side
> > of a page is necessarily a bad thing.
> 
> I don't think white space is a bad thing on the right or
> left either. But I do think it's a bad thing if it's there
> because the designer is not able to change it rather than
> it being part of the design. My site has 60 pixels of
> white space on both sides because I want it to as part of
> the design. Many designers simply aren't able to make use
> of the space because they aren't capable of producing
> liquid designs.

Probably so, laziness does rule in this (and many other 
fields). ;-)

> I think http://www.wired.com/ is a great example of a
> liquid CSS design.

I'm looking at Wired.com right now in Mozilla (full 
screen view at 1280x1024. Outside of their banner at 
the top, their content seems to be sized for about 1000 
pixels across. Their design certainly isn't trying to take 
advantages of the extra 280 px of space on the right 
side in my browser window, although I would think they 
certainly could. After all, the main content is in the 
middle, and the content of the right side keeps the 
center column text from sprawling ... 

David
dvjones(at)ksbe.edu

> Cheers,
> 
> Nigel Peck
> 
> MIS Web Design
> http://www.miswebdesign.com/
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-hwg-techniques(at)hwg.org
> > [mailto:owner-hwg-techniques(at)hwg.org]On Behalf Of David
> > Jones Sent: 05 March 2003 23:06 To:
> > hwg-techniques(at)mail.hwg.org Subject: RE: Accessibility
> > vs. column width control
> >
> >
> > On 5 Mar 2003, at 22:39, Nigel Peck - MIS Web Design
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Of course it costs them. When someone views their
> > > homepage they have one chance to grab their attention.
> > > If 40% of the screen is white space that could have
> > > been better used to achieve that task then it
> > > definitely costs them.
> >
> > That's the question - would letting long lines of text
> > sprawl out the side of the page be a "better use" for
> > catching people's attention? Not necessarily.
> >
> > > It's fixed size layouts with 100% control that go back
> > > to print medium not the other way round.
> >
> > I was talking about why some non-web-designers might not
> > like "wasted white space." I've seen fixed size layouts
> > with 100% control (using Flash) that didn't have every
> > square inch of the area crammed with stuff.
> >
> > > Designers need to get used to the idea of creating a
> > > design that can adapt.
> >
> > Very true. A big jump for many traditional graphic
> > artists, in my experience. We have a designer here
> > who's idea of a catalog web page was to put up a PDF of
> > the existing catalog ...
> >
> > > I'm not saying that as much content should be there as
> > > possible. White space is fine if it's part of the
> > > design but when it's a big chunk at the side it's a
> > > different story.
> >
> > Again, not necessarily. The size of that "big chunk" is
> > determined by the visitor's browser window size, what
> > looks big to one person may look too small to another.
> >
> > > You would think a B&M were idiots if they left half
> > > the floor space completely empty. You seem to be
> > > talking about white space within a page layout not
> > > stuck at the side, two different issues. I don't like
> > > the typical Yahoo cram it all in design any more than
> > > most.
> >
> > No, I wasn't saying that they leave it completely empty,
> > but that they put it to good marketing uses, such as
> > inviting aisles, space for lines to form at registers or
> > around customer service kiosks, etc.
> >
> > I don't make a distinction between white space at one
> > side or another, or white space within the page. It's
> > white space. If the amount of white space seems to be
> > excessive and unused, perhaps the design could be
> > reworked to use it more effectively or differently, but
> > I don't think having white space on left or right side
> > of a page is necessarily a bad thing.
> >
> > David
> > dvjones(at)ksbe.edu
> >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Nigel
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-hwg-techniques(at)hwg.org
> > > > [mailto:owner-hwg-techniques(at)hwg.org]On Behalf Of
> > > > David Jones Sent: 05 March 2003 18:52 To:
> > > > hwg-techniques(at)mail.hwg.org Subject: Re:
> > > > Accessibility vs. column width control
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 5 Mar 2003, at 8:25, custom wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I am generally in the "design for an 800 px wide
> > > > > screen no matter what" camp. Any site that makes
> > > > > me scroll horizontally I leave immediately --
> > > > > unless they've got something free for me.
> > > > >
> > > > > But -- here's something to consider -- while I
> > > > > have never had a client complain about having to
> > > > > scroll horizontally (even when some had to because
> > > > > their screens were only 640 wide) I have had
> > > > > several complain about the amount of "unused
> > > > > space" on the right hand side.
> > > > >
> > > > > I try to explain the reasons for this to them, but
> > > > > it falls on deaf ears -- the "wasted space" theory
> > > > > really bugs them.
> > > >
> > > > That mindset goes back to print media. Empty paper
> > > > costs you money, so the idea was to put something on
> > > > it that would make money. Similarly, some brick &
> > > > mortar store floor layouts use as much of the floor
> > > > space as possible for making money by putting as
> > > > much stuff out there as possible. In a B&M store,
> > > > that results in cluttered stores and narrow aisles,
> > > > and always makes me think the store looks shabby and
> > > > uninviting.
> > > >
> > > > Once people realize that empty space on a web page
> > > > costs them nothing, perhaps they'd have less
> > > > problems with "wasted whitespace."
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > > dvjones(at)ksbe.edu
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 


 

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