Emily,


I want to make clear the things I've been writing down as things that annoy
me are things everyone will find annoying, except of course the one that
makes them.

But it's my fault you started thinking further.  I shouldn't have put those
three dots at the end of the list ;)

However, there's a difference between annoying things and the things you
mention. I don't call using no frames annoying. On the contrary, sometimes
it delights me.  It's just for my own site, I'd go for frames.  But mind, I
don't have anything against them when for example I use them through SSI.
They're actually great because they allow for smooth and continuous design.

Right hand menu?  No problem there either.  I've done some sites with
right-hand menu's.

As far as your forms are concerned, confirmation from the user is certainly
a good thing, and any arguments for it to slow down all of us speedy
gonzales are wiped off the table as soon as someone notices a mistake and is
able to correct it.  For all important data collecting pages, I do the same
thing.  I've been through setting shops online and all the things that go
with that.  You learn a lot from it.

Apart, from that, I have to say of the list of things (backspace, enter,
tabbing) the enter is the one users should know.  The other, I don't care
about.

Concerning your site there's nothing at first sight I would call annoying in
any way.  However, I would suggest to have image preloads for your menu
items, as I'm on a slow modem here, and response time is very slow (four
seconds wait for the image to appear).

However, someone should always be prepared for critique.  That's a fact in
life and is even more true when discussing things online, in a more or less
anonymous environment.  I am prepared, I won't kill myself if someone gives
bad critique on my site.  I know annoyingness is something subjective and
therefor can appear even with the most carefully designed sites.  It gives
us the opportunity to make things better.

Don't worry, the book thing was just a joke.  Haha. ;)


- Kayjey -




-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Berk/Devlin [mailto:armadill(at)earthlink.net]
Verzonden: donderdag 5 juli 2001 21:27
Aan: Klaas De Waele; 'hwg-techniques(at)mail.hwg.org'
Onderwerp: RE: Suppressing carriage return in a form action??


At 10:16 AM 7/4/01 +0200, Klaas De Waele wrote:
>I think this is all a bit bending to the wrong habits of users.  Internet
>users should know that by pressing enter they submit a form, and by
pressing
>tab they can cycle through the fields, while when pressing backspace it
>could very well be they will be taken to a previously visited page.
>
>I don't think it's considered our job to break functions.  

Back in the dark ages when I got my degree in comp. sci., we were urged to
validate data as users entered it rather than accept bad data and get back
to them hours or days later to let them know they screwed up.  

My theory is that you young people, faced with browsers that don't submit
data except all at once, have decided to make virtue of necessity.  So,
you've determined that user error is no problem of yours.  

Except of course, it is a problem and it's YOUR problem because when a user
submits a wrong zip code and the check gets lost in the mail, YOU are the
one who does not get paid.

In this case, I was getting two or three form submissions for every one that
had been sent purposefully.  On the second or third the user would write,
"oops, sorry for the previous failed attempts..."  This was a waste of user
time and my time.  So, I have handled it in my own unique way.  

I have not changed the All-Hallowed UI of the Internet as you Noble Lords of
the Internet define it.  I accept the Enter key AND I allow users to press
the Submit button.  I do however make clear to my users that pressing Enter
submits the form.

And, when the user does press Enter (or Submit), I just post a confirmation
form that the user can peruse to ensure the data is correct.  This delays
experienced users just a little bit.  However, none of my users ARE
experienced users because they are all joining for the first and only time.


Since I made this change, I have gotten NO premature form submissions and NO
complaints from experienced Internet users who want to use the form; the
only negative feedback was from you (see below).  So from my point of view,
my solution was successful.

In the same message, Kayjey also threw in:

>There's some things that I find annoying on sites:
>
>in order of "annoyingness" ...

I know I asked for any and all comments.  So I asked for this.  Next time, I
guess I should ask for any and all constructive comments.

I'm going to assume that this subsequent thread of Web site bashing relates
to your extreme distaste for the "annoyingness" of my Web site.  Kayjey and
Lois and in fact, any and all of you who care to place my Web site in your
list of annoying Web sites are welcome to.  I would feel honored by the
coverage.  Let me know when/where you post your critiques so I can let my
friends and clients read all about that's wrong with my site.  (I will not
be willing to sacrifice trees so I can read books that bash my work.  Hope
you understand.)

Oh, and Klaas -- you forgot to mention that I have a right-hand nav menu AND
that I use tables instead of frames -- I believe those are two other
features you don't appreciate.  

If you'd like, let me know what other features you dislike most in Web
sites, and I will try to implement them for you on my site .-)

--Emily

>- popups when you enter/leave a page
>- right-mouse button disabled (don't worry, I'll get to the code another
>way)
>- sound (well... noise)
>- bad navigation
>- being forced to grab the mouse after typing something (forms not
>submitting when I press enter, etc...)
>-...
>
>Maybe I'll once write a book about annoying websites.
>Please inform me if you have an annoying site.
>
>
>- Kayjey -
>
>On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 10:05:28 -0700, I asked:
>
>>I have a form (http://armadillosoft.com/epgy/join.php3) and my users are
>accidentally submitting it prematurely by pressing <ENTER> to go to the
next
>field when they should be pressing tab.   
>... 
>So, now I've got a slew of different forms, all of which (hopefully) work
>similarly.  They are at:
>http://armadillosoft.com/epgy/epgyforms.php?theform=j.php
>http://armadillosoft.com/epgy/epgyforms.php
>http://armadillosoft.com/epgy/epgyforms.php?theform=gt.php
>
>All comments are welcome.  And thanks again for your suggestions.
>
>--Emily 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~                            Emily Berk                                 ~
On the web at www.armadillosoft.com *** Armadillo Associates, Inc.      ~ 
~             Project management, developer relations and               ~
extremely-technical technical documentation that developers find useful.~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

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