Re: Frames vs. Tables

Drew,

I said before that we can agree to disagree -- in retrospect it appears I
should have spoken only for myself <:-(. I respect your right to your
opinion, but since you took it upon yourself to misrepresent mine, I'll
correct it.

I did not claim that merely appearing in a tutorial made anything *good*
design. I challenged *your* calling valid (based on the specification) CSS
used in widely recommended techniques similar to those used in other media
*bad* design. I offered no opinion on whether the design was good or bad,
and in fact agreed that the *practice* was bad.

I did not say that *anyone* who writes a tutorial is an expert, only that
those I cited were written by experts (Jim Heid of Macworld, for instance).
You are free to disagree with my assessment.

I did *not* suggest writing anything that wasn't cross-platform, nor did I
state or imply that anyone was trying to write for one platform using CSS.
In fact I was pointing out that strict, valid CSS using the standard can in
some cases produce poor cross-platform results, and I recommended against
certain uses of CSS *for that reason*.

Anyway, thanks for restating your position, Drew. I only wish in doing so
you would've portrayed mine accurately.

Kyle
keller(at)amsoil.com
http://www.cp.duluth.mn.us/~eller/kyle/

>> Drew,
>>
>> >"Creating a drop shadow effect" using CSS is bad design and shows the
>>author's
>> >poor knowledge of HTML/CSS. The fact that it degrades badly is a
>>reflection of
>> >its bad design and is not caused by the CSS.
>
>Kyle Eller wrote:
>
>> I agree that using CSS for drop shadows is bad *practice*, and I wouldn't
>> do it or recommend it. However, it *is* recommended in many legitimate
>>tutorials
>> on the subject
>
>Just because it appears in a tutorial doesn't make it good design.
>
>> A practice's failure to degrade properly does not necessarily equate to
>> "bad design" at least not by any objective standard I know of,
>
>Part of good design is knowing the strengths, weaknesses, potential, and
>limitations of your medium. One of the strengths of HTML/CSS is that it is
>platform
>independent. Creating drop shadows using CSS disregards that strength and
>creates
>something that is platform specific. It is ipso facto bad design.
>
>> nor does it necessarily reflect lack of knowledge about CSS or HTML in the
>> author.
>
>The fact that they try to create something platform specific using a tool
>that was
>explicitly designed to be platform independent most certainly does reflect
>their
>lack of knowledge about CSS and HTML.
>
>> IMHO, if code is written in accordance with appropriate specifications,
>> achieves an effect common in many media and is *recommended* in
>>tutorials written
>> by experts, it's a little presumptuous to call it "bad design."
>
>First, anyone can write a tutorial. The fact that someone has written a
>tutorial
>does not mean that they are an expert.
>
>Second, even if the tutorial was written by an expert, it is often an
>expert from
>some other field. Good design from one field does not automatically carry
>over to
>another. One good example is David Seigal (?) who as far as I can tell is
>a very
>good graphic designer, but a horrible web page designer. He is trying to
>warp HTML
>design into print design. It just doesn't work.
>
>> It may degrade badly and you or I may not like it, but it's not "wrong."
>
>There is a difference between "wrong" and "bad". I only said that the
>design was
>bad.
>
>> I also think claiming someone who uses valid HTML and valid CSS to
>>achieve such
>> an effect has "poor knowledge of HTML/CSS" also seems a little over the top.
>
>Do you think that someone who can sing flawlessly in another language, but is
>unable to carry on a conversation in that language has a good knowledge of that
>language? I don't.
>
>In the same way, people can produce valid HTML and valid CSS without
>understanding
>one of the most basic concepts about HTML. That concept is PLATFORM
>INDEPENDENCE.
>Anyone who hasn't grasped this concept doesn't really understand HTML/CSS.
>
>> >CSS used appropriately should never produce an unreadable page in non-CSS
>> >browsers.
>>
>> Appropriate by what definition? If your definition is "anything that
>> produces an unreadable page," you're right.
>
>I've said it before. Platform Independence.
>
>> Go to http://webreview.com/97/06/27/coder/index.html, turn off your
>>style sheets
>> and click on the first demo.
>
>A perfect example of bad design. I know people who are so motor challenged they
>have trouble with a mouse. Having them aim for moving targets is too much.
>
>Drew Allen

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