Re: frames compatibility<OPINION TIME !!>

Dennis,
that was more than an opinion.  If your opinion holds true, and I suspect it
does, that was an important lesson.  I find this information about
inaccessability of frames all very disappointing. It is unfortunate that
frames don't work for the disabled.  I personally am a neophyte and have
designed only one frames-based page, but I feel that the frames can give the
page structure without getting into complicated nested tables and offer
infinite design options.  Perhaps I am naive?

OK.  So if you provide a non-frames page for every frames page, is that OK?
Kate Pollara



----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Lapcewich" <dlapcewich(at)intira.com>
To: <hwg-basics(at)hwg.org>
Cc: "'Kate Pollara'" <kpollara(at)home.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 6:07 PM
Subject: RE: frames compatibility<OPINION TIME !!>


> > Thanks to all for their "frames" observations and opinions.
> > Fuzzy, can you elaborate on what people do with frames that is so
> terrible.
> > I happen to think that frames can be very effective for navigation and
> > presentation, but would shy away from them on a site that requires the
> mercy
> > of search engines.  It is a shame.  Why couldn't the designer designate
> the
> > target pages to search?  It seems rather simple.
> > Kate Pollara
> >
>
> Technical quagmires aside, frames are very user-unfriendly with regard to
> web accessibility and those page reading devices for impaired users.
>
> While you may not have great concerns with this right now, and this is for
> USA-based sites, the Americans with Disabilities Act (see
> http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adahom1.htm ) is shown to be increasing used
by
> those who feel disenfranchised beyond what many contend what was the
> original intent of the law.  It is only a matter of time until the ADA is
> used with respect to the web on a scale larger than it now is used.  My
> neurons vaguely recall at least a lawsuit or two already in the works
> against websites which fail the ADA test. :)
>
> For non-USA-based sites, you are encouraged to check with your own
country's
> laws.  Australia, for example already has similar ADA legislation in
place,
> however, its implementation takes a different approach.  The bureacrats
Down
> Under are slowly tightening the screws to ensure compliance.  What is not
> well-known is that the Oz legislation can force immediate compliance
without
> warning or the site must be shut down, with limited to no recourse of the
> site owner(s).  Needless to say, the more high profile a site, the greater
> potential such a site must address web accessibility. See
> http://www.acn.net.au/resources/guides/g7/s7.htm for more info.
>
> (Of course, you ask, what should the Oz examples have to do with non-Oz
> websites anyway?  Well, you may be surprised to find that considerable
> computer hardware, sotware and web development takes place in Australia by
> USA-based organizations who later introduce them into the mainstream north
> of the equator.  Quite a few of the well-known tools you have on your
> computer actually were invented and/or tested among the koalas and
jumbucks,
> including internet censorship legislation already pending in the US
Congress
> and other government agencies.)
>
> While Neilsen's commentary on frames appears to be outdated (see
> http://www.useit.com/alertbox/9612.html ), it still does not hurt to read
it
> to understand and appreciate the useability aspects of frames.
>
> Just because it is technically possible to use frames adequately with
> current mass browsers does not mean it is prudent to do so from a customer
> service, economic and/or useability standpoint(s).  The KISS principle
> certainly applies and by the look of the most heavily visited big
websites,
> frames are noticeably absent, along with most other bells, whistles and
> frilly objects.
>
> A source for links on this may also be found at
> http://www.htmlhelp.com/design/frames/ as well as the Web Accessibility
> Initiative (WAI) found at http://www.w3.org/WAI/ where the discussion on
> frames calls for much more use of compatability than just framesets,
target
> pages, etc.
>
> It would be great just to design pages and websites to meet personal and
> customer needs, but  this is no longer the case, be it for a big,
well-known
> website, or a small one-person chop shop.  Choose your level of
accessibilty
> wisely with respect to frames, and any other bells and whistles for that
> matter.  It may not play a significant role in your design department just
> yet, but with the increasingly tougher legislation and activisim on the
part
> of accessibilty advocates, make sure they don't bite you in the butt down
> the road.
>
> <. exits soapbox and returns to playing with web toys ...>
>
>
>
> Dennis

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