Re: Strange Netscape Problem

At 10:49 AM 29/10/00 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey Tim,
>     : ) We're going to have to agree to disagree. I Love Netscape.  I=20
> hope I am
>not disappointed with 6.x .

You won't if you know how to code to the standards and are not used to=20
using the proprietary NN 4 stuff like LAYER.  Netscape 6 won't support it...

>Of course IE 5.x can parse dynamic much better than NN4.x, it is new.=
 Netscape
>keeps me more honest in my coding than any other tool.

IE 4 also did DHTML worlds better than NN 4 not to mention CSS, tables,=20
frames (IE actually sizes frames precisely to pixels and doesn't kludge=20
them to percentages like NN4 does) and more.  IE 4 was the same generation=
=20
as NN 4 and didn't come out that long after it yet it was and still is a=20
much better browser.  IE 5 and 5.5 only increased what was already a very=20
wide gap...

As for keeping you more honest in your code, the W3C HTML and CSS=20
Validators should be doing that and that's where I personally find that NN=
=20
4 is a very poor excuse for a browser.  Read my post from yesterday for=20
more details.  It just really makes me tick when one claims that Netscape 4=
=20
keeps their code more honest when that browser has by far the worst=20
standards support of all current versions of released browsers.  When the=20
Webstandards Project conducted tests to evaluate the quality of CSS support=
=20
in IE and Opera they didn't bother testing Netscape and publicly stated=20
that this would have been a futile exercise in writing long documents since=
=20
NN 4's CSS support is so poor.   It failed just about every test they came=
=20
up with.  The WaSP's site is having difficulty these days so I won't=20
provide a link.  Read the following for the story of a Web site that=20
crashed Netscape 4 even though the code was perfectly standard compliant:

http://alistapart.zeldman.com/stories/died/

Again I could go on and on.

>BTW Ben's code now works without a cludgy work around. With IFRAME, FORM,=
=20
>LAYER
>and plenty of CSS.
>
>I love Netscape.

I really don't care if you love NN or not or dislike IE or not.  This is=20
after all a free world (mostly...)  I think that the facts speak for=20
themselves though.

>I also dislike IE because when I install it keeps trying to take=20
>everything over
>for itself. Custom settings and designations I have for working with=
 digital
>photo editing, video and sound production are hijacked, etc.

Not true.  IE will indeed display many multimedia and image formats by=20
default but I believe it gives you a choice upon install.  It's been a=20
while since I installed it from scratch so don't hold me to those=20
words.  When I right click on an image to edit it, the only Edit With entry=
=20
I see is for Fireworks as it should be. NN 4 does not give me a choice of=20
not installing its AOL crap but IE does not install its MSN crap or=20
anything but the browser if I don't want it to.  It's only in the last few=
=20
updates that NN 4 started asking if I wanted it to be the default=20
browser.  Before that it would just do it without asking.  Indeed, IE 4 had=
=20
its roots deep in the OS but that changed with IE 5 and 5.5.

I can understand you disliking Microsoft but my arguments are not about=20
that.  I don't hate Netscape as a company and I don't particularly like=20
Microsoft either.  But there is no changing the fact that the particular=20
version 4 of the Netscape browser is a bloated and buggy dinosaur that is a=
=20
thorn in many Web developers sides, not because they can't write good code=
=20
but exactly because they _do_  and NN 4 fails miserably in may cases.  Tim=
=20
said that "Getting a page to display in Netscape 4 is now nothing more than=
=20
an exercise in backwards compatibility".  I disagree.  To me it's nothing=20
more than an exercise in degrading and defacing your code,  adding ugly=20
workarounds and non-standard kludges just to keep NN 4 behaving.  I'm sick=
=20
of it personally but I'm not ignoring the Netscape user base in my work.  I=
=20
have nothing against its users but I really cannot wait for NN 4 itself to=
=20
disappear...

St=E9phane Bergeron

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